Chelsea banter 36992

 

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23 Oct 2024 09:32:20
Really good article by ED001 and sums up where we are and what some of us are saying.

It looks like Maresca is not the answer and ED001 gives a lot of credit to Poch for where we are.

Also he like some of us agrees Sanchez should be no where near a first team GK.

ED001 is it possible to provide summary of our games the way you do for Liverpool as it might help to lower expectations about the manage and team. Save a few if us having to do this and get told we are being negative.

{Ed001's Note - I will do what I can, though I doubt I will have time to watch all your games twice like I do with Liverpools before I write them, so they will probably be shorter unless something has stood out in that game.}

Agree0 Disagree0

23 Oct 2024 10:02:45
Thank you very much ED001, really appreciate it.

{Ed001's Note - very welcome Bill.}

23 Oct 2024 11:53:44
Bill, out of interest what are your expectations? Mine haven’t changed, I think 3rd - 5th place in the premiership is achievable.

23 Oct 2024 13:30:03
Ed001, thanks for taking the time to spend time on Chelsea in your match review. It is good to see an outsider who shares some of the same concerns as a few of us on the site do. I particularly agree re Maresca benefitting from Poch's work before him, even if we are building up in slightly different shapes now (I would question the extent to which this is actually taking place but I digress) we are still reliant on playing a transitional game.

I do not blame Maresca for this, as he is working with the hand he's been dealt. He clearly knew what he was signing up for and is trying his best to make it work.

Fundamentally, this squad remains imbalanced, particularly in the midfield. Ignoring the sale of Gallagher, who plugged so many gaps last season for us, the decision to leave Maresca with a midfield of Enzo, Lavia and Caicedo was shortsighted in the least. Two players that you know were going to be travelling back and forth to SA and one who in the last year has played about 30 minutes of football. Easy to say now, but at the time a few of us were railing against the decision to loan out both Santos and Ugochukwu.

Personally, I would very much like to see us recall Santos in January and introduce him to the first team squad. He covers space as well as any of the current trio, has an eye for goal which the others demonstratively do not and is dominant in the air. He ticks all the boxes to partner any of the current three.

My fear is that as he was bought for a low fee, the offers we are likely to receive for him will enable us to make a significant profit. Will the club be in a position where we can turn that down, even if he represents a solution to some of our problems?

Ed001 - we may have discussed this in the past, but what would you do to sort out the midfield at Chelsea? I would be minded to sell Enzo, KDH, Felix and Lavia and integrate Santos and Chukwuemeka. No matter how unlikely that is.

{Ed001's Note - I think you are right, except that I would be loathe to sell Lavia as, when fit and firing, he is the best of the midfield and can do what Caicedo and Enzo can do in one player. But his fitness is a major worry. I get why Maresca wanted KDH, but the club should have never moved for him and then that is one less problem for Maresca to manage.

I also agree that one of Santos or Ugochukwu should be there as an option. It would provide a more balanced trio than the current set up. I like Chukwuemeka as well, but doesn't he also have injury issues? And this is the big problem. You have lots of players, but there are a lot of injuries amongst them, when Gallacher rarely got hurt. He should have been right near the bottom of the list of potential sales but that is not on Maresca.

The big question for me is more around your two best attacking players and how to get the best out of them - Nkunku and Palmer. You build the midfield around how to work with their strengths, which is why I would want Lavia there if fit. That then leaves the option of changing things for certain games by playing Jackson to run in behind, when the Nkunku/Palmer attack is not working. You do definitely need a midfielder to run in to the box and look to attack crosses, if Lavia is sitting, you can get Caicedo to make those runs. If Caicedo is sitting, then a KDH, Enzo, Santos or Ugochukwu would be a good option for that roles. You don't really want to take Palmer away from his natural wont to hang around the edge of the box as he can strike the ball so well from there.

More of a worry for me is that you have youth players being cast aside for refusing to sign a new deal, but the club offers them little hope of any long-term future with Chelsea, no matter how good they are. They know that even if they establish themselves, they are more than likely going to be sold for PSR purposes. It gives them little reason to sign a new deal, when they can go elsewhere that will make them feel wanted and offer them the chance of a long-term future. They can still decide to leave for themselves, but youngsters need to feel wanted first, rather than being treated as commodities for sale.

Sorry this is a really long and rambling answer and I have kind of lost the thread of what I was actually meant to be answering!}

23 Oct 2024 14:30:32
Ed001, please don't apologise, everything you have said is spot on!

Totally agree re Lavia projecting as being the best of the three, but the club is never going to sell both of the £100m boys so quickly, so I'm trying to maintain a semblance of realism. At the least, Lavia offers enough of what Enzo does to make him expendable (especially when you consider what he got up to over the summer - something I personally don't want associated with the club) . The point stands that a big decision needs to be made re at least one of the three.

Despite everything I have just said re having too many midfielders, an Enzo-Tchouaméni swap is something I would snap your hand off for.

100% agree with Nkunku and Palmer. I've been banging the drum for this for weeks. Personally, I would see if Nkunku can do a job on the left - it may not be ideal but Sancho has had a run is currently in the bottom 1% of all players in the premier league in terms of taking shots (fbref)! We only got to see Nkunku there for 1 game vs City in the first week. He's the best finisher in the squad - how can there not be more of a stink being made about him being relegated to the midweek team?

Don't get me started on the youth player issue, the Acheampong reports from last night confirmed everything I have been complaining about since the takeover. To go off on a tangent, this is the result of the unnecessary signings (Tosin, Disasi) and poor treatment of academy players (Chalobah) . The longer this goes on, the more we are going to see Champions League teams filled with Cobham graduates while we continue to thrash around each summer making 10 signings. They can only hold up Colwill and James as evidence that they value the academy for so long.

I'd also love to hear your thoughts on Chelsea's selling strategy so far, if you have time. Something that is not being spoken about nearly enough is that we are yet to see these SDs actually sell one of their own signings. Everyone they have moved on so far have been academy players or players that were here before them. It makes you think that with a player such as Acheampong, there isn't any desire to see them stay with the club, as they represent the only way to bring in enough money to continue affording the likes of Felix, KDH, Mudryk etc.

{Ed001's Note - it is strange that Enzo wasn't sold in the summer after his actions, something that would have made sense in so many ways regardless of those actions. It would have set down a marker on behaviour and shown that price is not going to be a deciding factor on how they deal with these things. I do believe he was signed prior to the new SDs being appointed though, wasn't he? So I don't think it was about them, more about knowing that his performances have not lived up to expectations, so the return he would get from being sold would be well below the price paid. It seemed a purely financial decision.

For me, that is the biggest problem for Chelsea in recent years. The moment Roman decided that the club needed to become self-sufficient things have regressed because they have gone about it the wrong way. Instead of aiming to put the best team on the park to win trophies, in order to increase income, they turned Chelsea into a flesh trader. That is not good for long term financial stability. Not in football.

I get in normal business, the practice of buying cheap and selling high is the aim, but this is not a normal business and the products are young human beings who have feelings. These are not electronic goods or similar, they do not react well to being treated as commodities to sell. The business of football is about winning trophies, to increase fanbase and so increase your value to TV/streaming companies and for merchandising purposes. Everything should be focused around that, not buying young players with the hope they will increase their value so they can be sold.}

23 Oct 2024 15:45:46
Cheers ED

This is exactly what we need on this site, realism.

To answer Tom's earlier question, I believe we will finish between 8th and 10th.

23 Oct 2024 15:23:32
Exactly Ed, it seems to have got lost in translation that the way to increase revenues as a football club is to win trophies, end of story. You can't player trade your way to the top.

Sorry to hijack your thread with an academy rant, but if we were to really go down the rabbit hole, are Mudryk, Sancho, Neto, Felix and KDH worth the £230m odd that we have spent on them? Have they done anything to suggest they are worth that much more to us that what Mount and CHO did? If you take away the £60m we received for those two, what could that £170m enabled us to buy? Would it be better than what we have on the pitch currently?

All legitimate questions to be asked, regardless of whether you rate Mount or CHO, they are just my examples. Sub in Koulibaly, Disasi, Badiashile and Fofana for Rudiger, Chalobah and Guehi and its the exact same point. I know it isn't as binary as I am stating here, but the overall conclusion that it leads me to is that we could be in a far healthier position if we had kept some of these players and invested in less punts on young players.

The club is sitting on a goldmine of talent that needs to be shown that they are more than just a get out of financial jail card. Musiala and Olise are at Bayern, Gallagher is at Atletico, Tammy, RLC and Tomori at AC Milan. If they are good enough for these Champions League teams, they should be good enough for the sixth best team in England.

{Ed001's Note - that is the thing, that academy really is a goldmine, but Chelsea is not making the most of it. Maybe that is something that will be addressed in time, when the new ownership have had time to understand the underlying business of football.}

23 Oct 2024 16:07:02
Realism is a word that is often used when people agree with one’s own opinions.

8th - 10th would be very disappointing. I hate to contemplate the idea of us finishing in mid table and dread the consequences but we will see.

23 Oct 2024 17:18:38
RBD, I think we have made some big mistakes in signing certain players but that comment would apply to every owner/ owners since I’ve been supporting CFC.

The Chelsea players you have mentioned who are currently playing in the Champions League for other clubs played under the last regime as well as this but as Ed mentioned the drive for a self sustained club started most recently under RA but it could be argued that Bates and Harding were looking for the club to be self sufficient when they decided to build two “awful” hotels on the clubs footprint.

When l look back at the academy players sold by RA and our present owner and using the benefit of hindsight I can only think of three that I would like back but that doesn’t mean I wanted any of them sold.

I haven’t got a clue what our present owners BP is but I’m sure that within that plan there is a desire for success, whatever that means.

23 Oct 2024 18:16:02
Am the most optimistic I have been for ages we all see things differently think we have a great squad going forward, between now and Christmas we will find out if I am overly optimistic, think we will be top 4 comfortably.

In my opinion one mistake is the loaning out of Kepa who is so much better than Sanchez.

With regards to the manager who must be given time the most important thing is that he let's Palmer play where he wants to whoever else that upsets
.

Finally hope the owners show a united front, Todds baseball team appear to be doing well.

23 Oct 2024 20:35:16
Tom

Realism is where the club will potentially finish not where we hope them too.

23 Oct 2024 21:41:34
Bill, the position the club finishes in is just an opinion/ punt/ guess.

As I understood post you used the term “realism” in reference to the clubs business/ standing to date. The two points are in my opinion completely different.

23 Oct 2024 21:59:13
I'm with you Tom, we will finish between 3rd and 5th. let's face facts, Man City will walk the league, 100%. Liverpool and Arsenal will battle for 2nd and 3rd. I would like to hear ED02's view? for me so much more insightful on all matters Chelsea.

23 Oct 2024 22:55:47
West side

Do you honestly believe that ED002 will disagree with ED001 summaries also if Arsenal and Liverpool are going to dispute 2nd and 3rd place that would mean you should be expecting CFC to finish between 4th and 5th not 3rd and 5th.

23 Oct 2024 22:56:53
As fans we are all just trying to make semi educated guesses on this seasons premiership finishing position.

I will be disappointed if we don’t improve on last seasons 6th place but most other teams have also improved there squads for this season and to me it seems unreasonable to expect other clubs to stand still and wait for us to catch up.

I am not happy that the club didn’t prioritise or strengthen in certain positions but I’m sure they tried.

I’m no longer as attached as some fans are to our academy players. That feeling of detachment is quite new for me and I’m not really sure why my feelings on this subject have changed. I should also add that i don’t feel as attached to CFC as I used to be and again I’m not sure why!

23 Oct 2024 23:36:08
Bill, Given that the Ed’s all probably support different teams, I think it’s likely that they see lots of football topics differently.

At the end of the season we will be able to see who has guessed correctly about our league position.

23 Oct 2024 23:48:59
Tom I am also not as attatched to CFC as I used to be obviously still want them to do well etc, I think as one gets older and I am old one realises that in the wider picture football is not that important in life.

In the era of Osgood Hutch etc if we lost would affect my weekend, now a bad result bothers me for 10 minutes tops unless it's against Spurs ha ha.

24 Oct 2024 09:08:58
Interesting thread. I don’t necessarily agree that losing academy players is our biggest problem though : this happens. We have signed academy players from other clubs. Remember, Mount and Gallagher refused to sign new contracts and as for Mount selling him for the fee we did was the second best bit of business we have done for years after buying Palmer. IMO our biggest problem is recruitment at all levels.

24 Oct 2024 09:59:22
Sorry to come back to this thread so late, I'm working abroad at the moment.

Re my points on the academy, think less of the individual players and more of the overall trend. In the last 5 years, the team has won 1 trophy and it was underpinned by academy players throughout. Sure, not all of them played a huge amount, but they were there as reliable back-ups to starters which enabled us to manage the squad. Some were key contributors, like Mount, Christensen and James.

This is what the academy enables you to do. You can rely on players that cost you nothing, to fill in and keep your starters fresh while not needing to pay anything for this value.

Some people are praising Chelsea for having two 11s, one for cups and one for the league. Look at some of the fees we have paid for these players and the value we are getting from them this season. Bear in mind the quality of the opposition:

Joao Felix, £45m, 1G1A in 328 mins
KDH, £35m, 1G0A in 406 mins
Neto, £60m, 2G1A in 656 mins
Sancho, £25m, 0G3A in 343 mins

Thats a total outlay of £265m for 4G5A in 1733 mins this season. Does this represent a good use of money?

Michael Olise, a player we were linked with but chose not to sign, £60m, 6G3A in 684 mins.

Maybe we should have just bought him, properly integrated Tyrique George and Donnell McNeilly from the academy and got roughly the same production for £165m less than what we have spent in the last couple of years?

THAT is what using the academy enables you to do. It ISN'T about having an 11 made up of academy players.

Then, in addition to this, by exposing these players to the first team early on, it convinces others that they have a pathway and a future at the club. If they know that they will get a chance to show what they've got, then they will be more likely to commit to the club and you are less likely to see a Musiala type of talent walking away. And if they don't take their chance, then they are still there to be sold for pure profit anyway!

It really is a win-win situation that the club seems to have completely fumbled with their addiction to transfers.

And NONE of this prevents you from signing an Estevao if you get the chance - if anything this helps because those sorts of players will look at Chelsea and see that they will get a chance to play early on.

I find it truly baffling that people push back against this, and willingly gulp down the idea that all academy players are spoilt brats that are demanding to play first team football at 17.

{Ed002's Note - Olise was a Chelsea academy player. You need to move on from your misinformed whining.}

24 Oct 2024 10:04:04
Of course the ED's will have differing opinions bill! and rightly so as well! talk to ED14 and you will have great arsenal insight and dare I say it, slight bias. ED01 is a huge Liverpool fan so the same applies and ED02 is a Chelsea fan.
We are all Chelsea fans and see things differently. You think we will finish 8th to 10th. Fine. I think we challenge for 3rd but finish 4th or 5th. Fine. No right or wrong, just different opinions. Others will still be in the TT corner, some in the Poch corner, others like myself in the Maresca corner, no right or wrong, just different opinions. Same for the striker situation, some will think we need a new striker in January, some will want Nkunku to come in, some will want Jackson to continue to improve and develop and therfore given more time as the main striker. All good debateable points. No right or wrong, no point scoring. Just opinions.

24 Oct 2024 10:58:19
I wish that were true West Side! .

Unfortunately if some people's views differ from others they are classified as negative! .

As you say we all want our club from top to bottom to be successful.

My view on the playing side is that we are nowhere near that with our defence shipping goals, a GK whi does not breed confidence and a coach who has yet to master the low block.

As I say tgay are just my points of view! .

24 Oct 2024 11:15:47
Bill, being so called “classified as negative” is no different to being “classified as positive. ”

Surely it’s just about us all giving our misguided opinions.

25 Oct 2024 07:40:38
We are all able to give opinions bill. If you choose to give a negative one then that is fine and your choice. Carry on and enjoy the banter. If others like myself wish to adopt a "glass half full" attiude then that also is fine. What should be avoided is blatant misinformation though which is just not needed on this on any other site. Great win last night and brilliant management of the squad by the ever more impressive enzo maresca.

25 Oct 2024 10:02:17
Agree West Side it was a decent win, not an easy place to go as their fans are load.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on Jorgi, our GK last night.

As you say, I will continue with the banter and will be positive/ negative where I think I need to be.

I'm curious though where you think the misinformation was in my posts.

25 Oct 2024 19:47:08
Jorgi did ok Bill. The posting of misinformation was a generic comment and not aimed at you.

25 Oct 2024 21:23:38
Thank you for your response West Side.

Hopefully after Sunday, I will be a glass half full like yourself and Tom.





 

 

 
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